【观察者网报道】4月6日至7日，中国国家主席习近平和美国总统特朗普在位于佛罗里达州的海湖庄园首次会晤。纵观全球，恐怕没有比中美之间关系更有影响力的双边关系了。为此，俄罗斯顶级国际媒体“今日俄罗斯”（RT）就中美关系，采访了中国著名智库中国人民大学重阳金融研究院执行院长王文。

这也是RT首次专访中国学者。采访中，RT记者苏菲·谢瓦纳兹问题犀利，时有挑衅，但都被王文院长一一化解。化解过程甚为经典，观察者网特地将原文翻译、整理出来，以飨各位读者。（视频及访谈中英对照附于文末。）

采访视频截图

南海问题

美国国务卿蒂勒森此前访华时曾声称中美遵循“不冲突不对抗”的原则，但南海问题上中美冲突未曾中断。

就中美之间对抗是否不可避免一问，王文院长认为，当前中美之间有一个很好的谈判和协调渠道，双方高层官员就这些问题进行面对面探讨，进而协调谈判、处理危机。作为一个智库学者，其相信当今中国有足够的信心在南中国海问题上与美国进行斡旋。

RT记者苏菲·谢瓦纳兹继续追问，中国是否存在主张对抗的鹰派人士，王文院长给了肯定回答：“当然！中国情况非常复杂，我们有13亿人口，也存在不少民族主义者。这些民族主义者对美立场非常强硬，敢于和美国对抗。”

肯定之余，王文院长又强调了中国外交主张和平路线的想法：“中国的政府非常理智并且希望在民族主义者和自由主义者之间找到一个平衡点，走出一条自己的外交之路。中国希望和平地、渐进地、双赢地处理与大国之间的关系。”

中国政府不仅多次在多处场合公开声明对南海的历史性所有权，也在南海不断推进吹填造岛工程，甚至在一些岛礁上建成机场。不少外媒将岛建工作、中国驻军等行动上升到“中国威胁论”。对此，王文院长指出：

“认为在南中国海的那些岛屿上，中国完全有权利保护自己的主权。那是我们作为所有者的权利，没人能够阻止。所以说美国凭什么干涉南中国海岛屿的建设？许多中国人认为不可理喻，谴责美国的干涉行为。所以我认为最重要的是世界需要明白，南中国海问题是中国和东南亚国家的事务。”

南海永暑礁

美国宣称“要阻止中国进入人工岛屿”，王文院长表示“对美国那些闲言碎语我们是拒绝和批判的。我们希望美国能平衡各方关系，对南中国海问题保持沉默。……对美国可能的行动，我们有充分的应对措施。”

台湾问题

在中美关系中，台湾问题也是不可回避的问题之一。美国虽声称尊重“一个中国”原则，但仍无视中国警告，对台军售。对此，王文院长认为那些武器将来最终会归属于中国。

“中国反对美国对台湾军售，但是另一方面，从学者的角度看，我们坚信美国卖给台湾的武器将来最终会归属于中国，因为台湾将来会回归祖国。台湾是一个岛屿，即使台湾的军事实力比过去强了很多，也不可能改变‘一个中国’的现状，因为现在中国大陆的GDP和军事力量都是台湾的几十倍，所以我们有十足的信心（在未来完全统一台湾）。”

亚太国家关系

一直以来美国拉拢中国周边国家成为盟友，例如越南、韩国、日本等。但是菲律宾现在与美国的关系破裂，开始转向中国，即使中菲存在领土争端。

就中国应如何处理与周边国家的关系，王文院长谈道：“我认为菲律宾转向中国是非常明智的做法。菲律宾终于想明白了。过去，菲律宾前总统对美国过分信任，但新总统上台后幡然醒悟——美国只能给菲律宾空头支票而中国可以为菲律宾提供常规的支持。菲律宾人很聪明，他们明白谁是好人谁是骗子。所以我认为，这给中国周边国家树立了一个良好的典范。我对越南、马来西亚以及其他国家，甚至韩国、日本有充分的信心。”

这些形势是否意味着美国与中国周边国家及环太平洋地区构筑的联盟正分裂瓦解？王文院长表示“就当前新形势而言，美国在亚太地区的军事同盟无法发挥作用。因为，进入新世纪、面临新条件，我们亚太国家应当崇尚可持续发展，如何做到可持续发展？我们需要的不是军事同盟，而是发展，是投资，是基础设施建设。”

中国引领世界

美国前任总统奥巴马热衷在亚太地区推行TPP协议，并将中国排除在外。中国为“捍卫自由贸易”，联手东盟，积极推进“区域全面经济伙伴关系协定”（RCEP）。特朗普对TPP协议向来持否定态度，一上台就签署行政令宣布退出。中国欢迎美国加入RCEP吗？中国是否在谋求更广泛的国际影响力？

针对RT记者这些提问，王文院长答道：“我们非常欢迎美国的加入。当今中国外交政策的核心价值是双赢、开放、包容。所以我们欢迎所有国家加入中国发起的协定。例如我们现在最重大的倡议——‘一带一路’，中国欢迎所有国家加入。我认为俄罗斯积极参与的行为值得肯定，而美国至今仍摇摆不定。”

王文院长继续解释称：“中国是第二大经济体，未来十年中国将成为世界最大的经济体，未来3到5年中国将成为世界最大的消费市场。所以，中国希望给国际社会提供更多的公共产品。过去，世界低估了中国对全球治理的贡献。三年前，习近平主席发起了‘一带一路’倡议，这意味着中国作为新兴大国，希望在和平、双赢、避免冲突和战争的前提下为世界作出贡献。”

“特朗普这个人很有趣”

采访中，王文院长还对特朗普对中国不甚明确的态度表达了自己的看法。

王文院长说道：“特朗普这个人很有趣，他非常擅长学习，现在他正在学习如何做一个美国总统。所以我认为不应该根据竞选时期的言论来分析特朗普，我们需要给特朗普学习的时间。中国有信心与特朗普打交道，让他明白什么符合美国的长远核心利益。中美合作、美俄合作符合美国的利益，这是我的观点。”

对中美关系，王文院长表示我们不能只关注对抗，应当看到两个大国之间关系的其他侧面。

“每年有超过600万人往来于两国之间，两国贸易额接近6000亿美元，这就是另一个侧面——现在中美两国是互相依存的。我认为对抗的说法其实是媒体的定义、媒体的观点。现实中两国推崇的是和平、互助、双赢。我年年去美国，感觉美国普通民众和中国普通民众一样，都认为稳定和平双赢是两国的共同目标。”

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Beijing can defend itself against American aggression - Chinese think tank dean

中国有能力应对美国攻势——中国智库院长如是说（视频）

　　视频来源：今日俄罗斯电视台

片头画外音：

Wang Wen. - the dean of a leading Chinese think tank - the Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies - a frequent adviser to the Chinese government

王文——中国顶尖智库——重阳金融研究院执行院长——资深政府咨询专家

Washington is taking another shot at building relations with Beijing. The Chinese leader is preparing for a state visit to the US to meet with the new president. But this comes as tensions over the South China Sea continue to boil over. With hostile rhetoric from both sides, where will the relationship head? Last week, we got the American take on where the US and China stand. To get the view from Beijing, we are joined by a frequent adviser to the Chinese government, the dean of a leading Chinese think tank – the Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies, a participant of the Moscow Economic Forum – Dr. Wang Wen.

美国再次试图向中国示好。中国领导人正准备对美国进行国事访问，会见新上任的美国总统。不过此时恰逢南海紧张局势不断升温，双方言辞不善，中美关系将走向何方？上周，我们了解到美国人对中美局势的看法。今天，我们请到了资深政府咨询专家、中国顶尖智库——重阳金融研究院执行院长、本届莫斯科经济论坛发言嘉宾王文，探讨中国方面对中美问题的立场。

Sophie Shevardnadze： Dr. Wang Wen, head of the Chongyang Institute for Financial Studies, it's' really great to have you on our program today, welcome. You're also a frequent adviser to the Chinese president as we know, there's a lot of questions to discuss. After a series of threats against China from the new American administration - from starting a trade war, to expelling China from its artificial islands - the U.S. seems to be trying to strike a friendly chord. Is Beijing ready to turn the page and start fresh?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：王文院长，欢迎您来到我们节目现场。我们了解到您不仅担任重阳金融研究院的执行院长，还是中国政府的资深咨询专家，今天有很多话题值得讨论。在新一届美国政府对中国抛出一系列威胁言论之后，例如发动贸易战、将中国驱逐出人工岛屿等，美国似乎正在试图向中国示好，中国方面是否打算既往不咎、重新开始呢？

Wang Wen：Well, actually, how to deal with the new American Administration - it's one of the most important missions of China's foreign policy, and as you've mentioned that President Xi and President Trump will meet next week - I think, this will have a very good start point for the new period of the U.S.-China relationship.

王文：事实上，如何处理与美国新一届政府的关系是中国外交政策的一项重要任务。我认为，习近平主席和特朗普总统的会面，将开启中美关系发展的新阶段。

SS：You mentioned the Mar-a-Lago summit. What does China expect from that meeting?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：中国对在棕榈滩海湖庄园举行的两国元首会晤，有什么期待？

WW： I think that the U.S. should learn from Russia, because Russia respects China very much and China respects Russia very much, but the U.S. didn't respect Russia, didn't respect China - you know, in the past. So that's why this time China's target is to, maybe, tell the U.S. how to respect the other great powers such as China, such as Russia. I think, nowadays, one of the very big challenges for China-U.S. relationship is how to avoid the historical trap - that means, if one great power rises up, another great power will launch a war at it or we'll have a war between those great powers, the existing and the rising power. So I think China doesn't want to have a war with the U.S., so China wants to avoid historical trap with the U.S.

王文：我认为美国应该向俄罗斯学习，中俄之间一直以来相互尊重，然而美国过去对中俄并不友好。中国希望借此次会晤告诉美国应当如何尊重其他像中俄这样的强国。中美关系目前面临的一个巨大挑战就是如何避免两国陷入“修昔底德陷阱”——当一个强国崛起的时候，另一个强国会对它发起战争，或者在现有强国和新兴国家之间爆发战争。中国不愿意与美国发生战争，所以中国希望中美双方能够避开历史陷阱。

SS： I want to talk in detail about how China should avoid the war, because the words of diplomacy sound wonderful and it encourages a lot of people, but then you go into detail and you wonder how  that's going to work out - for instance, Secretary of State Tillerson said that China and the US are guided by ‘non-conflict and non-confrontation’, but it's not like the US is going to stop its navy patrols in the South China sea, or China is not likely to give up on its islands - so is it in fact impossible to take out the ‘confrontation’ out of that relationship?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：我想就中国如何避免战争进行一些细节上的探讨，虽然外交辞令总是无懈可击、令人欢欣鼓舞，但当深入细节就会发现根本行不通。例如，美国国务卿蒂勒森声称中美遵循“不冲突不对抗”的原则，但是既没有迹象表明美国海军将停止在南中国海的巡逻，也没有迹象显示中国将放弃它在这些岛屿上的主张，这是否意味着中美之间的对抗是不可避免的？

WW： I think the South China sea is the issue that is very-very complicated. Nowadays China and U.S. have a very good channel to negotiate and to coordinate. I think this is a very good...

王文：我认为南中国海问题非常复杂，当前中美之间有一个很好的谈判和协调渠道。

SS： What's that channel?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：是怎样的渠道？

WW： For example, Mr. Secretary visited Beijing, also we have a few of high officials who visited DC and we can discuss face-to-face and then coordinate and negotiate about the problem and deal with the crisis. I think this is very good. For China, nowadays, from think-thank scholar’s perspective, now we have enough confidence to deal with the U.S. about South China sea.

王文：例如，美国国务卿访华，中国也有高层官员访问美国，就这些问题进行面对面探讨，进而协调谈判、处理危机。我赞同这样的做法。作为一个智库学者，我认为当今中国有足够的信心在南中国海问题上与美国进行斡旋。

SS： I was speaking to Pentagon adviser the other day and he said that there are people in Washington who want showdown with China - that's his direct quote. Are there similar hawks in China who would also want a full long confrontation with the U.S.?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：我前几天跟美国国防部的顾问对话，他告诉我说，在美国有些人想要跟中国一决胜负——这是他的原话。在中国是否也有这样的鹰派人士想要跟美国进行全面长期的对抗？

WW：I think the U.S.' viewpoint about South China sea is very-very complicated. There are a lot of different viewpoints....

王文：对南中国海问题，美国的看法非常复杂，有许多不同的声音……

SS： I am not talking only about South China sea -just in general. You know, there are people in America right now, maybe some in Administration or not who are actually for confrontation with China, for one reason or another - maybe, because of what's you've mentioned, that there's one greater power and the other one is rising and just in the matter of years it will become even greater than America itself. Maybe that's the reason why they would want a showdown. I don't know. But there are people in America who would want that. Are there similar hawks in China who would want that as well?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：我不是单指南中国海问题，而是从整体意义上来讲。现在美国有这样一群人，有的甚至可能在政府部门，因为这样或那样的原因主张对抗中国，比如可能是因为中国的崛起会在未来几年威胁到美国的霸权地位。总之，持这样立场的美国人确实存在。在中国有没有类似的鹰派人士？

WW： I don't think so. I think that firstly, the U.S. cannot not consider China as the next Iraq or next Afghanistan or next Libya. China is the second largest economy in the world. China fears not any hollow discourse, or hollow announcement from the U.S. China has enough power to defend [itself] against any enemy. On the other hand, China has the wisdom. We have enough wisdom to do with this very complicated and horrible, threatening, discourse.

王文：我不这样认为。首先，美国不能把中国视为下一个伊拉克、阿富汗或是利比亚，中国是世界第二大经济体，不畏惧美国任何空洞的言论或声明，中国有足够的力量抵御外侮，也有足够的智慧去应对这些非常复杂的、耸人听闻的、威胁性的言论。

SS： But you didn't answer my question. Are there people in China who have a similar view that there should be a confrontation?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：但是您没回答我的问题。中国是否存在类似主张对抗的声音？

WW： Of course! China is a very complication region. We have 1.3 bn population, there's a lot of nationalism. For those nationalists, they have very tough...they dare conflict with the U.S. - but apart from this, China's government is very rational. China's government wants to balance those nationalists and those liberals and to take the separate road in the foreign policy. China wants to deal with any greater power relationship peacefully and gradually and with "win-win" method, yeah.

王文：当然！中国情况非常复杂，我们有13亿人口，也存在不少民族主义者。这些民族主义者对美立场非常强硬，敢于和美国对抗。撇开这个不说，中国的政府非常理智并且希望在民族主义者和自由主义者之间找到一个平衡点，走出一条自己的外交之路。中国希望和平地、渐进地、双赢地处理与大国之间的关系。

SS：We'll get to "win-win", but you know what I’ve been told time and time again, from the Chinese side and from the American side, that an "accidental encounter" can spark a full-on military confrontation, a war,even. Even the slightest accident in the region. Is this something that is always in the cards for the Chinese? Are you prepared for this kind of scenario? Because there are no guarantees... Accidents happen all the time.

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：我们稍后会谈到“双赢”，但我不止一次听中方和美方讲，哪怕一个小小的意外冲突都可能会引发全面的军事对抗甚至是战争。对中国人来说冲突是迟早的事吗？你们为此作好准备了吗？毕竟未来的事谁也说不准。

WW： I think that yes, China is prepared for any possibility now, because on one hand China has a lot of think-tanks - we, think-tanks, think for our government and prepare every possibility. And on the other hand, that is our foreign policy is very smart. We avoid those worst situations that happened. This is a very interesting thing - trust China’s foreign policy. In the past 30 years, China had no war with any country. China is the most peaceful country in the world.

王文：是的，中国现在做好了应对任何可能状况的准备。一方面，中国有许多像我们这样的智库为政府筹划。另一方面，我们的外交政策十分巧妙。我们总是避免最坏的情形发生，大家要对中国的外交政策有信心。过去30年，中国没有与任何国家发生战争，中国是世界上最和平的国家。

SS： You've used the term "mutual respect’, and the Chinese seem to use this word combination lately, which means both sides don’t challenge each other's interests. The U.S. traditionally has its interests in the Asia Pacific, it has Japan and other nations - is China ready to accept that? Are you not going to challenge that? Are you not going to challenge America being partners with Japan, South Korea?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：您刚提到“相互尊重”，最近中国人似乎常把这个词挂在嘴边，它的意思是双方不会挑战对方的利益。但是美国在亚太地区有自己的传统利益，有着日本和其他盟友。中国愿意接受这个现状吗？还是打算对此提出挑战？你们打算挑战美国和日韩之间的伙伴关系吗？

WW： Yes, we often, always, we feel the challenge, because of the rise of China. The rise of China has changed the structure of the Asia-Pacific and other countries - such as you've mentioned： Japan, South Korea or other countries in the South-East Asia - they cannot adhere, they can not be fit for new conditions. So nowadays China has to be patient to deal with other countries, neighbour countries. And gradually, let the other countries to be fit for China, new great power China. So, this is what I think is China's foreign policy now.

王文：是的，我们一直能感受到中国崛起带来的挑战。中国的崛起改变了亚太地区和其他国家的格局，正如您所提到的日韩以及其他东南亚国家，这些国家不能适应新的状况。所以我认为，当下中国采取的外交策略是，十分耐心地处理与其他国家和周边国家的关系，让这些国家逐渐适应中国作为新兴大国的存在。

SS： There's always the One China policy that U.S. administration has said it's going to respect,but only in its own way it's not going to challenge the status of Taiwan, but it will help it militarily. So how's that sitting with China right now?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：美国总是声称将会尊重“一个中国”原则，不会试图改变台湾的现状，但是美国只按自己的方式行事，例如美国仍然对台军售。中国对此可以接受吗？

WW： I think that One China policy is the borderline of China's foreign policy...

王文：我认为“一个中国”原则是中国外交政策的底线……

SS： But how do you view or feel about the One China policy the way Americans see it?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：您认为美国是如何看待“一个中国”原则的？

WW： I think even President Trump - he knows the borderline of China's foreign policy. After he got the position, his new position, he never touched the borderline. President Trump chose to respect the One China policy. It is my understanding.

王文：我认为即使特朗普总统也明白中国外交政策的底线，在他就职之后从未触碰过该底线，显示了对“一个中国”原则的尊重，这是我的理解。

SS： Okay, but despite Chinese warnings, the U.S. is reportedly prepared for a large arms shipment to Taiwan. That's a fact. Is China going to challenge that somehow? Are you going to take some serious counter-measures or is it just going to be statements of displeasure?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：但是据报道称，美国无视中国的警告准备大规模地向台湾输送武器，这也是事实。中国会以某种方式对此提出挑战吗？你们是打算采取严肃的应对措施还是只是打算在口头上表达不满？

WW： Yes, China criticised sales from the U.S. to Taiwan, but on the other hand, form the the scholar's perspective, we feel full confidence that any arms the U.S. sells to Taiwan, they will belong to China in the future, because Taiwan will a part of China in the future.

王文：是的，中国反对美国对台湾军售，但是另一方面，从学者的角度看，我们坚信美国卖给台湾的武器将来最终会归属于中国，因为台湾将来会回归祖国。

SS：But future is a very broad notion. I mean, we're talking right now, things are happening and Taiwan is getting stronger militarily thanks for the United States - are you okay with that? Because it can take another hundred years until Taiwan becomes Chinese the way you see it.

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：但是“未来”是个很宽泛的概念。我们就说当下正在发生的现实，得益于美国的支持台湾在军事上正变得越来越强大，你们对此能接受吗？因为中国实现完全统一可能还要上百年时间。

WW：I don't think so. Taiwan is an island. Even if Taiwan's military power becomes much more than before, Taiwan cannot change the status quo of the One China, because the GDP of mainland China nowadays is dozens of times of Taiwan's.  Chinese military power is dozen times more than Taiwan's. Taiwan cannot change status quo or any conditions now. So we feel enough confidence. And, as for the future, China has a long civilization. We have the wisdom to wait and enough patience to wait for the new future and perfect the future.

王文：我不这么认为。台湾是一个岛屿。即使台湾的军事实力比过去强了很多，也不可能改变“一个中国”的现状，因为现在中国大陆的GDP和军事力量都是台湾的几十倍，所以我们有十足的信心。至于未来，中国有漫长的文明发展史，我们有智慧有耐心去守望和塑造未来。

SS： The islands in the South China Sea that Beijing claims as its own can soon become airstrips for combat Chinese aircraft. Do you think China is going to deploy a permanent force there to back its claim to the Islands?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：那些中国宣示主权的南中国海岛屿可能不久就会成为中国战斗机的简易机场。您觉得中国会在那些岛屿永久驻军以守卫自己的主权吗？

WW：I think in those islands in the South China sea, China has enough right to protect our sovereignty. So, no one can stop it. It is our owner’s right, so why the U.S. is intervening in the South China island construction? There are so many Chinese people confused about it and criticising the U.S. intervention. So, I think the most important thing is that the world needs to know that the South China Sea, it's a relationship between China and South East-Asia countries.

王文：我认为在南中国海的那些岛屿上，中国完全有权利保护自己的主权。那是我们作为所有者的权利，没人能够阻止。所以说美国凭什么干涉南中国海岛屿的建设？许多中国人认为不可理喻，谴责美国的干涉行为。所以我认为最重要的是世界需要明白，南中国海问题是中国和东南亚国家的事务。

SS： But it doesn't always look that easy. When I hear Secretary Tillerson say that "United States is going to deny" or not allow China access to its islands that it's building - how do you react to that? What if the U.S. really tries to deny access to China, what are you going to?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：但是看起来并不容易。我听美国国务卿蒂勒森说美国将会阻止中国进入中国自建的岛屿——你们对此如何回应？如果美国所说属实，你们打算怎么做？

WW： But the U.S. often gossips over everything,

王文：美国对任何事都会闲言碎语。

SS： You mean it's just blah-blah-blah? And there's...

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：您的意思是美国只是巴拉－巴拉－巴拉地说空话吗？

WW： This is a reality we look at. The U.S. often gossips about everything in the world, but they cannot do everything, now.

王文：这就是我们看到的事实。美国对世界上的所有事指手画脚，但现在还成不了什么气候。

SS： So right now, when the U.S. Administration is saying "we're going to deny China access to its artificial islands that it's building" - you think it has no grounds for truth or action?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：所以，现在美国正在宣称的“我们将要阻止中国进入他们建造的人工岛屿”，您认为完全没有事实或行动基础？

WW： We reject those gossips. We criticise those gossips. We ask the U.S. to keep the balance, keep silence about South China Sea.

王文：对美国那些闲言碎语我们是拒绝和批判的。我们希望美国能平衡各方关系，对南中国海问题保持沉默。

SS： What happens if the United States really tries to deny China access to the islands that it's building? How will China react?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：如果美国真正采取行动阻挠中国进入自建岛屿，中国将如何应对？

WW： I think we depend on U.S. real activity. We have enough solutions to react to the U.S. actions, so we just wait and see how will the U.S. act, yes.

王文：这取决于美国的具体行动。对美国可能的行动我们有充分的应对措施，只需等待和观察美国的行动。

SS： So, also, we're seeing a tendency right now:U.S. has long had its allies your regional - Vietnam, South Korea, Japan, but for instance, Philippines right now is turning to China, breaking its ties with America - even though you have a territorial dispute. What should China do woo the other nations around it? Do you think they're going to form an alliance around Beijing now?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：我们现在看到这样一个趋势——一直以来美国拉拢中国周边国家成为盟友，例如越南、韩国、日本等，但是菲律宾现在与美国的关系破裂，开始转向中国，即使中菲存在领土争端。中国应该如何处理与周边国家的关系？您认为周边国家会围绕中国结成紧密的同盟吗？

WW： I think that Phillippines' turn to China - it's a very clever and very right thing. Philippines woke up. In the past, the former President of Philippines trusted the U.S. too much and then the new President of Philippines suddenly woke up： the U.S. cannot give Phillippines anything, but China keeps sending regular support to Philippines. So, I think this is why Philippines... Filipino people are smart, they see which country treats them well, which country just cheats him. So I think, this is a very good example for the neighbour countries of China. I have enough confidence for Vietnam, for Malaysia, as well as the other countries, even South Korea or Japan.

王文：我认为菲律宾转向中国是非常明智的做法。菲律宾终于想明白了。过去，菲律宾前总统对美国过分信任，但新总统上台后幡然醒悟——美国只能给菲律宾空头支票而中国可以为菲律宾提供常规的支持。菲律宾人很聪明，他们明白谁是好人谁是骗子。所以我认为，这给中国周边国家树立了一个良好的典范。我对越南、马来西亚以及其他国家，甚至韩国、日本有充分的信心。

SS： Looking at things right now, do you think that the the system of US alliances in the region, with your neighbours, with the Pacific Rim, do you think it's falling apart, do you think that system is unraveling?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：观察现在的形势，您是否认为美国与中国周边国家以及环太平洋地区构筑的联盟正在分裂瓦解？

WW： I think for the new conditions of Asia-Pacific, the military alliance with the U.S. is useless, because it's new conditions, it's a new century. We, Asia-Pacific countries should develop sustainability, so I think - how do we develop sustainability? We don't need those military alliances, we need development, we need investment, we need construction of infrastructure, not those military allies. This is my answer.

王文：就当前新形势而言，美国在亚太地区的军事同盟无法发挥作用。因为，进入新世纪、面临新条件，我们亚太国家应当崇尚可持续发展，如何做到可持续发展？我们需要的不是军事同盟，而是发展，是投资，是基础设施建设。

SS： It's true that we've spoken so much about the U.S.-Chinese confrontation and you hear about it a lot - then I think about it, and I'm thinking, it's impossible for an average American to imagine his or her life without Chinese products. I mean, the two countries are so closely connected by trade and intertwined economically - how is it even possible to talk about confrontation when both sides have so much to lose in terms of money?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：我们谈了很多也听了很多有关中美对抗的话题，但仔细一想，对一个普通美国人来说，没有中国产品的生活是不可想象的。我的意思是，中美两国经贸关系联系得如此紧密，经济上双方都输不起，这种背景下怎么可能谈论对抗？

WW：I think that for the U.S.-China relationship, we cannot only focus on those confrontations. We shall look at the other face of the two great powers' relationship. Every year, there are over 6 million people exchanged between the two countries. There are nearly $600 billion dollars in trade. So, I think this is the other face - the U.S. and China now are in interdependent conditions, so I think confrontation is really a media definition, media idea. In the reality between the two countries we share, we enjoy peace, we enjoy interdependence, we enjoy the "win-win" games. This is my understanding. I travel to the U.S. many times, every year, and found that all those ordinary people in the U.S., all those ordinary people in China - you ask them, most of them will think that stability, peace, "win-win" is our common target.

王文：关于中美关系，我们不能只关注对抗，应当看到两个大国之间关系的其他侧面。每年有超过600万人往来于两国之间，两国贸易额接近6000亿美元，这就是另一个侧面——现在中美两国是互相依存的。我认为对抗的说法其实是媒体的定义、媒体的观点。现实中两国推崇的是和平、互助、双赢。我年年去美国，感觉美国普通民众和中国普通民众一样，都认为稳定和平双赢是两国的共同目标。

SS：I want to talk about the TPP agreement that President Trump has buried. President Obama wanted that deal very much and it would have excluded China. Your president right now is saying he will defend free trade, so is China actually ready to pick up on where the U.S. left off?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：我想谈一下特朗普总统退出TPP这件事，奥巴马总统很热衷TPP并且将中国排除在外，现在习近平主席声称将捍卫自由贸易，这是否意味着中国将代替美国发挥作用？

WW： All the countries in the world should follow the WTO rules. We have the existing rules, why does the U.S. should establish the new rules? So I think that Trump did well. Most of Chinese, you know, support Trump.

王文：世界上所有加入WTO的经济体都应该遵守WTO 的规则，我们有既定的规则，为什么美国还要建立新的规则呢？我认为特朗普总统做得很对，大部分中国人都赞同特朗普的做法。

SS： I understand why you would support Trump burying TPP, because, obviously it's very unnerving when a huge deal like that excludes a huge country like yours from the region. But China has no devised a Free Trade Pact for the region itself - it's called the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership - let me ask you think, is Beijing ready to welcome the US to become a part of it?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：我理解为什么中国赞同特朗普退出TPP，显然中国作为在亚太地区举足轻重的国家，被这样一个重大协定排除在外肯定会感到不安。但中国也在该地区发起了一个自由贸易协定——地区全面经济伙伴关系协定（RCEP）——请问，对此中国欢迎美国的加入吗？

WW：Of course, I think if the U.S. can join, can participate, we will welcome them. Nowadays the core value of Chinese foreign policy is "win-win", an open, inclusive. So, anyone who wants China's initiative, China welcomes. For example, the biggest new initiative, One Belt-One Road, we welcome any country to join the One Belt-One Road initiative. So, I think, Russia did a right now, but the U.S. now still hesitates to join or not. This is very interesting.

王文：当然，我们非常欢迎美国的加入。当今中国外交政策的核心价值是双赢、开放、包容。所以我们欢迎所有国家加入中国发起的协定。例如我们现在最重大的倡议——“一带一路”，中国欢迎所有国家加入。我认为俄罗斯积极参与的行为值得肯定，而美国至今仍摇摆不定。

SS：Also, I wanted to ask you about China that has always been content with being a leader of its own region, but right now, we're seeing China building the Silk Road infrastructure project and also investing so much in Africa - so is this tradition changing, is Beijing ready to seek more influence abroad?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：另一个问题是，中国一直习惯于在地区充当领导角色，但是现在我们看到中国正在建设丝绸之路基础设施项目，在非洲大量投资，这是否意味着中国正在打破传统，谋求更广泛的国际影响力？

WW：Of course, China is second largest economy and in 10 years China will be the largest economy in the world, and also in 3 or 5 years China will the largest consumption market in the world. So China, of course it wants to provide international, public good the world. In the past rest of the world underestimated China's contribution to the global governance, so 3 years ago, President Xi launched a new initiatives, as you mentioned, a Silk Road initiative, or One Belt One Road initiative. It means that as a new great power, Chinese want to contribute to the world with peaceful, with "win-win" principles, without war, without conflict. I think, it's a good thing for the world.

王文：当然，中国是第二大经济体，未来十年中国将成为世界最大的经济体，未来3到5年中国将成为世界最大的消费市场。所以，中国当然希望给国际社会提供更多的公共产品。过去，世界低估了中国对全球治理的贡献。三年前，习近平主席发起了“一带一路”倡议，这意味着中国作为新兴大国，希望在和平、双赢、避免冲突和战争的前提下为世界作出贡献。

SS： Finally, really shortly, I am going to ask you about Trump - because you can't really tell what Trump wants from China, because one day he says one thing, another day he says another thing - do you think that's part of his strategy, to be unpredictable, and if yes, is this working?

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：最后我想简短地问您一个关于特朗普的问题，特朗普对中国的态度一直不甚明确、朝令夕改，您是否认为这种不可预测性其实是他的一种策略，如果是的话，对中国起作用吗？

WW： Trump is a very interesting guy, and now he is studying, he's learning how to be a President of the U.S., and he's a smart guy to learn something. So, I think, we cannot analyze Trump according to election campaign period. We should give Trump enough time to learn, to study as a President, so I think that China has confidence to engage with Trump and to tell Trump how this deal will benefit to the U.S.' core interests in the future. I think cooperation between U.S. and China, cooperation between U.S. and Russia will a benefit to U.S. interests. This is my viewpoint.

王文：特朗普这个人很有趣，他非常擅长学习，现在他正在学习如何做一个美国总统。所以我认为不应该根据竞选时期的言论来分析特朗普，我们需要给特朗普学习的时间。中国有信心与特朗普打交道，让他明白什么符合美国的长远核心利益。中美合作、美俄合作符合美国的利益，这是我的观点。

SS： Dr. Wang, thank you very much for this interview, we wish you best of luck.

苏菲·谢瓦纳兹：王博士，非常感谢您接受我们的采访，祝您一切顺利。